Hi @Ben
If you navigate to a profile, just select "view messages" (top right of the profile page) and you can see all messages sent to that contact via campaigns and flows during a specific time period.
Regarding opt-outs receiving Klaviyo emails, did you import the opt-outs from CM into Klaviyo's suppression list? This is necessary to ensure Klaviyo won't allow you to send emails to those opt-outs.
During migration from CM to Klaviyo, did you import your opt-in contacts and select "Yes, update subscription status for all imported contacts to 'subscribed'" during the import process?
Even if a contact has Shopify ‘Accepts Marketing’ set to false or their Klaviyo profile states "never subscribed", they will still receive emails if they are in a list or segment you're sending to. The Klaviyo email status just shows that Klaviyo has no record of a contact having opted-in via a Klaviyo form or via an import.
It actually makes sense that Klaviyo doesn't use Shopify ‘Accepts Marketing’ as the "truth". Customers buy on Shopify and choose not to opt-in during checkout. Later on they opt-in to marketing via a Klaviyo form into a list. Then ‘Accepts Marketing’ = false and Email = "Subscribed"
However, once a contact unsubscribes via a Klaviyo flow or campaign (or you import an unsubscribe list), they will be supressed from all future emails.
You should also check under Settings >> Other, and ensure "When someone unsubscribes from a list, unsubscribe that person from all lists" is enabled which is recommended.
Being more specific about the differences between Shopify ‘Accepts Marketing’ and Klaviyo Email opt-in status and how to ensure they sync, I've just written about that here: https://community.klaviyo.com/lists-segments-and-profiles-35/email-never-subscribed-but-accept-marketing-true-8582
Hope that helps!
Andy
@bluesnapper Thanks for the reply but this makes zero sense to us sorry.
If a customer has unsubscribed, why do they still receive emails?
Hi @Ben No problem. Happy to help if I can!
If you have global unsubscribe enabled in Klaviyo then any contact who unsubscribes from a Klaviyo campaign or flow will not receive any future campaign or flow emails.
If that hasn’t happened with global unsubscribe enabled, the only things I can think of are the following:
-Are you sending any non-transactional emails from Shopify e.g Abandoned cart? If these have an unsubscribe link, Shopify will change “Accepts Marketing” = “false” on an unsubscribe but that won’t update Email status in Klaviyo. If that's the case, then create an Opt-in segment in Klaviyo with a definition that includes your Klaviyo list(s) - contacts who have explicitly opted-in - and OR that with "Accepts marketing = true" data provided by Shopify
-The unsubscribe session timed-out for some reason. I’d be surprised if that happened for a lot of contacts trying to unsubscribe, but I guess it’s possible.
-Sometimes, people don’t click unsubscribe but reply to the email with unsubscribe in the body or subject line. Anything in your sending email inbox?
You didn’t confirm if you imported your opt-outs from CM to Klaviyo - did you do this?
I'd also check the Klaviyo profiles of those contacts who’ve complained. Does their Email status = “Unsubscribed”? If any do, check their activity log to see what emails they’ve received and if they unsubscribed before or after the email they are complaining about. If they unsubscribed before, raise this with Klaviyo support.
Regards, Andy
@bluesnapper Thanks for the reply,
To answer your question re initial migration, we created a segment in Klaviyo called ‘All suppressed’ that captured CM unsubs and we manually add it to each campaign (it was added to the campaign in question).
But if we forget (we’re all human) then campaigns get sent to unsubs which is mind-numbing - right? Especially for something mission critical like unsubs.
Question: If you install the Shopify integration, why can’t Klaviyo and Shopify talk so that the unsub loopholes you mention get removed automatically?
Overall, it seems like Klaviyo tries to create opportunities to send rather than erring on the side of caution. This creates complex loopholes (read your answers above) that I’m sure most non-agency companies are unaware of.
But these loopholes break trust with customers - why would you want this? If you respect your customer’s wishes, it’s truly worrying.
Hi @Ben I recommend you import CM unsub segments into Klaviyo unsubcribers. That way they won’t get emailed unless they explicity opt-in at some point via a klaviyo form or other non-Klaviyo opt-in. And you don’t have to remember to exclude that segment for campaigns or worry about it in flows.
I don’t know the logic behind the Shopify/Klaviyo data integration - I don’t work for Klaviyo - but I think my original statement holds: customer behaviour is such that people buy, don’t opt-in during checkout, and then later on subscribe via a Klavio form. In that case, is the customer opt-in? Shopify will say no and Klaviyo will say yes.
My preference is to use Klaviyo as the single source of truth re opt-in/out and set up the segments and flows accordingly based in Klaviyo data and Shopify data.
Regards
Andy
@bluesnapper Thanks for the reply and I appreciate you’re just trying to help us - I didn’t realise you’re not from Klaviyo sorry.
To anyone at Klaviyo, why is this so convoluted? We have unsubscribes and suppressions with seemingly multiple loopholes. When we started, I don’t remember seeing unsubscribes, certainly not on profiles - you had to navigate to the suppression list and add a profile - right?
Hey @Ben,
@bluesnapper has given some great insight into best practices and profile management.
I believe the key here is understanding that suppressing all contacts that have unsubscribed from your previous ESP (email service provider) and from your ecommerce platform since migrating to Klaviyo is best practice.
Doing so would prevent any emails from being sent out these customers - even if you had mistakenly included them as your recipients through a campaign.
Do you mind providing more details on the loopholes you’ve mentioned when it comes to suppressed profiles still receiving emails? The only emails suppressed profiles would be eligible to receive are transactional emails.
Are you also by chance still sending emails out from your previously ESP and/or sending non-transactional emails (I.E. abandoned cart) through your ecommerce platform (Shopify)? It’s best practice to only be using one email service provider to send marketing emails. This is to prevent any deliverability issues and to properly maintain your profiles/contacts.
I’m not part of the product team, however, from my understanding, Klaviyo isn’t able to specifically sync unsubscribe users and automatically suppress them based on how they are identified and differentiated by the various platforms and tools we integrate with.
For example, within Shopify, profiles/contacts identified as Accepts Marketing = false, does not mean they have unsubscribed. This simply means the profile has not opted into marketing emails. However, some profiles marked as Accepts Marketing = false are profiles that have unsubscribed. For this reason, the accepts marketing profile really isn’t reliable.
Instead, it would be more reliable to export a list of users that have unsubscribed and import to the suppression list in order to clearly identify users that have opted out. This way, you can manage all profiles/contacts and their opt-in statuses directly from Klaviyo going forward.
At the end of the day though, Klaviyo provides the tools to help in managing profiles. However, the task of maintaining those profiles and ensuring consent statuses are respected falls on the account owners.
Really loving this lively discussion!
David
"Do you mind providing more details on the loopholes you’ve mentioned when it comes to suppressed profiles still receiving emails? The only emails suppressed profiles would be eligible to receive are transactional emails."
CM obviously has lots of cons but when someone unsubscribes in CM, they'll never see another email with zero work form us. CM also respects when someone hasn't given explicit permission (or did when we used it). CM also weeds-out unsubs from campaigns with zero work. Yes, you can manually intervene but by default, CM doesn't create loopholes that result in e-mails being sent to people who don't want them.
Klaviyo seems to work the opposite way and assumes you can send marketing (like ignoring Accepts Marketing = false). This obviously creates situations (or loopholes) where marketing emails are sent to those that don’t or never wanted them, unless you manually intervene.
"Are you also by chance still sending emails out from your previously ESP"
No.
"or sending non-transactional emails (I.E. abandoned cart) through your ecommerce platform (Shopify)?"
No.
"I’m not part of the product team, however, from my understanding, Klaviyo isn’t able to specifically sync unsubscribe users and automatically suppress them based on how they are identified and differentiated by the various platforms and tools we integrate with. For example, within Shopify, profiles/contacts identified as Accepts Marketing = false, does not mean they have unsubscribed. This simply means the profile has not opted into marketing emails. However, some profiles marked as Accepts Marketing = false are profiles that have unsubscribed. For this reason, the accepts marketing profile really isn’t reliable."
But it doesn't matter if they didn't opt-in from the start or opted-out afterwards. Accepts Marketing = false means we don't have explicit permission to market to them. But by default, Klaviyo assumes it’s OK to send marketing - right?
"Instead, it would be more reliable to export a list of users that have unsubscribed and import to the suppression list in order to clearly identify users that have opted out. This way, you can manage all profiles/contacts and their opt-in statuses directly from Klaviyo going forward."
Well, it's better if you're looking for opportunities to send marketing! But if respect your customers, then you respect Accepts Marketing = false.
"At the end of the day though, Klaviyo provides the tools to help in managing profiles. However, the task of maintaining those profiles and ensuring consent statuses are respected falls on the account owners."
Agreed but by default, Klaviyo prioritises marketing opportunities over respect. This creates a loophole which has to be manually managed by the account owner.
It’s been surprising to learn that Klaviyo ignores Accepts Marketing = false. Maybe override this flag if you want but ignoring by default?
This doesn’t make much sense to us.
Cheers, Ben
Hey @Ben,
CM obviously has lots of cons but when someone unsubscribes in CM, they'll never see another email with zero work form us. CM also respects when someone hasn't given explicit permission (or did when we used it). CM also weeds-out unsubs from campaigns with zero work. Yes, you can manually intervene but by default, CM doesn't create loopholes that result in e-mails being sent to people who don't want them.
Klaviyo seems to work the opposite way and assumes you can send marketing (like ignoring Accepts Marketing = false). This obviously creates situations (or loopholes) where marketing emails are sent to those that don’t or never wanted them, unless you manually intervene.
Klaviyo works the same way. If someone unsubscribes from Klaviyo, they’ll be automatically suppressed and excluded from all emails going forward. There’s no manual intervention necessary. @bluesnapper also spoke to this prior:
However, once a contact unsubscribes via a Klaviyo flow or campaign (or you import an unsubscribe list), they will be suppressed from all future emails.
But it doesn't matter if they didn't opt-in from the start or opted-out afterwards. Accepts Marketing = false means we don't have explicit permission to market to them. But by default, Klaviyo assumes it’s OK to send marketing - right?
I believe the misunderstanding here is that you may be putting too much weight on the accepts marketing property. The accepts marketing property is just a custom property and doesn’t always accurately identify consent. For example, a profile can have Accepts Marketing = True but have unsubscribed. Since this can swing both ways, Klaviyo doesn’t assume anything - it's up to you to manage the consent of your profiles/contacts.
Well, it's better if you're looking for opportunities to send marketing! But if respect your customers, then you respect Accepts Marketing = false.
The purpose of exporting all your unsubscribed users and importing them into Klaviyo as suppressed would be establishing a source of truth of who you can and cannot reach out to. Like many others, in addition to suppressing those that have unsubscribed, you can also identify those users who have the property of accepts marketing = false and suppressed them in Klaviyo as well.
I would just keep in mind that you wouldn’t be able to fully clear these accepts marketing = false profiles though. As mentioned prior, it’s a custom property specific to Shopify that gets synced over whenever a profile is identified. Some examples of how this property can be applied with false include:
- customer abandoning their checkout after entering their email
- site visitor entering their information through a ‘contact us’ form
- customer signing up to back in stock/waitlist
- a third-party tool intervention
In all of these scenarios, if the customer/visitor does not (or was unable to because one was not added) check off the box indicating they want to subscribe to your newsletter, they’ll be marked as accepts marketing = false.
The accepts marketing property aside, these contacts would be considered as having implied consent. I would suggest reading up on this from our Understanding explicit vs. implicit consent Help Center article.
Agreed but by default, Klaviyo prioritises marketing opportunities over respect. This creates a loophole which has to be manually managed by the account owner.
It’s been surprising to learn that Klaviyo ignores Accepts Marketing = false. Maybe override this flag if you want but ignoring by default?
As I’ve discussed, Accepts Marketing is only a shopify property that gets carried over to klaviyo thanks to the integration. Overall, it’s not meant to directly dictate consent values in Klaviyo.
David
@David To, your answers contradict themselves.
On one hand you’re saying ‘no manual intervention necessary’ but on the other you say ‘it's up to you to manage the consent of your profiles/contacts’. Can you see why we’re totally confused at this point?
This thread has come about because it’s becoming more common for customers to mention that they’ve unsubscribed but still receive emails. Granted, it’s 4 or 5 people on the past few months but for each person that says something, many more do not. This never happened in CM.
And each time we’ve checked their profiles in Shopify, Accepts Marketing is set to false.
So although you say we place too much weight on this Shopify flag, each time we see this issue, it’s tuned out that Shopify accurately reflects the customer’s wishes. Maybe this is luck but this never happened in CM.
The purpose of exporting all your unsubscribed users and importing them into Klaviyo as suppressed would be establishing a source of truth of who you can and cannot reach out to.
But that’s what we did and the suppression list is added to every email.
Hey @Ben,
If you review my response closer, my point on not requiring any manual intervention are for profiles that have unsubscribed and are suppressed.
If someone unsubscribes from Klaviyo, they’ll be automatically suppressed and excluded from all emails going forward. There’s no manual intervention necessary.
Still, this wouldn’t contradict the fact that managing the consent of profiles/contacts are the responsibility of the account owners. While Klaviyo handles the technical aspect of suppressing individuals that have unsubscribed, you still need to ensure that you have the necessary consent from your contacts to send them emails in the first place. It's about differentiating between Klaviyo's automated handling of unsubscribes and your own responsibility for managing consent.
And each time we’ve checked their profiles in Shopify, Accepts Marketing is set to false.
You had mentioned you aren’t sending emails out via Shopify anymore. If you were solely sending marketing emails out from Klaviyo, I would recommend reviewing these profiles in Klaviyo. From all the above points mentioned - including many of @bluesnapper’s - it’s established that the accepts marketing property wouldn’t be a reliable to dictate consent. Especially since migrating and using Klaviyo as your email service provider.
Instead, reviewing these profiles in Klaviyo would offer you a better picture. If these customers successfully unsubscribed, an unsubscribe metric will be recorded and their consent status would be updated. On the small chance they may have subscribed again but forgot, you’ll notice a subscribed metric too. Lastly, for all profiles that unsubscribed, you’ll notice their profile as being suppressed.
You can even dive further by reviewing the source of where these contacts have unsubscribed or subscribed from too.
Regarding opt-outs receiving Klaviyo emails, did you import the opt-outs from CM into Klaviyo's suppression list? This is necessary to ensure Klaviyo won't allow you to send emails to those opt-outs.
You also never confirmed if you did export those unsubscribed users and imported them to your suppression list in Klaviyo. I would also keep in mind that this is different than creating a standard list or segment and importing your contacts to it as you suggested prior:
we created a segment in Klaviyo called ‘All suppressed’ that captured CM unsubs and we manually add it to each campaign (it was added to the campaign in question).
The suppression list is a unique list and can be found by navigating to Profiles > Suppressed People link in the upper right of that page as mentioned in both the Understanding suppressed email profiles and How to bulk suppress or delete email contacts in Klaviyo Help Center articles.
If you haven’t already, I would also advise taking a look at some of the help center articles I included below that I think you’ll find helpful:
David
@David To We’re just going round in circles which is pointless.
Hey @Ben,
I’m sorry to hear that you’ve been having a frustrating experience.
If you still need further support on understanding this, I would suggest reaching out to our wonderful support colleagues who could point you in the right direction by providing more account specific details.
We also have a large network of Klaviyo Partners you can reach out to that are experts in helping users in a more hands on capacity.
Thanks for being a part of the Klaviyo Community!
David
